Linux Petition

[Martin]

Hi all,

Just to let you know that a LinuxQuestions member initiated an
e-petition to call for a Windows to Linux migration on the government IT
systems.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32255

Please share if you find the cause worthy.

Thank you

Martin
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[Keith Edmunds]

Post by Martin
Please share if you find the cause worthy.

The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.

Better to ask that all new systems be Open Source.

[Chris Bell]

Post by Keith Edmunds
The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.

I have been in contact with my own MP, Angie Bray MP, Parliamentary
Private Secretary to the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Member of
Parliament for Ealing Central & Acton, about the use of Free Open Source
Software, and there have been indications that the government has been
listening.
My local London Borough of Ealing has been watching the results as some
other London Boroughs have moved towards Linux. I was told that they are
worried about the costs of retraining staff, although that has to happen
every time a new version of their existing system is released.
I saw a report that the US have given up the idea of having only
perimeter security, and now assume that almost all networks have been
cracked - so just try to protect the contents. The US Air Force has been
working with the US government to produce a minimal ultra-secure Linux
distribution, and I think it is likely that the UK government is watching.

[Christopher Hunter]

Post by Chris Bell

Post by Keith Edmunds
The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.

I have been in contact with my own MP, Angie Bray MP, Parliamentary
Private Secretary to the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Member of
Parliament for Ealing Central & Acton, about the use of Free Open Source
Software, and there have been indications that the government has been
listening.
My local London Borough of Ealing has been watching the results as some
other London Boroughs have moved towards Linux. I was told that they are
worried about the costs of retraining staff, although that has to happen
every time a new version of their existing system is released.
I saw a report that the US have given up the idea of having only
perimeter security, and now assume that almost all networks have been
cracked - so just try to protect the contents. The US Air Force has been
working with the US government to produce a minimal ultra-secure Linux
distribution, and I think it is likely that the UK government is watching.

Chris (and all)

Practically speaking, we're not concerned much about people cracking the
access to our systems (closed or open source) - it's really not the
problem.

The real issue is the "packet flood" problem, causing "Denial of
Service" - they probably won't gain access to anything sensitive, but
neither will we! These attacks leave our networks so clogged with
malicious (and rejected) packets that they are rendered unusable.

C.

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[James Courtier-Dutton]

Post by Christopher Hunter

Post by Keith Edmunds
The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.

   I have been in contact with my own MP, Angie Bray MP, Parliamentary
Private Secretary to the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Member of
Parliament for Ealing Central & Acton, about the use of Free Open Source
Software, and there have been indications that the government has been
listening.
   My local London Borough of Ealing has been watching the results as some
other London Boroughs have moved towards Linux. I was told that they are
worried about the costs of retraining staff, although that has to happen
every time a new version of their existing system is released.
   I saw a report that the US have given up the idea of having only
perimeter security, and now assume that almost all networks have been
cracked - so just try to protect the contents. The US Air Force has been
working with the US government to produce a minimal ultra-secure Linux
distribution, and I think it is likely that the UK government is watching.

Chris (and all)
Practically speaking, we're not concerned much about people cracking the
access to our systems (closed or open source) - it's really not the
problem.
The real issue is the "packet flood" problem, causing "Denial of
Service" - they probably won't gain access to anything sensitive, but
neither will we!  These attacks leave our networks so clogged with
malicious (and rejected) packets that they are rendered unusable.

"Perimeter security" is extremely old and now days ineffective.
For example, the UK government has isolated (from the internet)
networks called RLI and SLI that carry classified traffic.
If I was to add a web server to that network, even though it is not
connected to the Internet, I have to go through tough lock down
procedures, in much the same way as if it was attached to the
Internet.
Security is done more on an onion approach, with multiple layers of
security and data isolated and controlled as much as possible.
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[Martin]

Post by Keith Edmunds

Post by Martin
Please share if you find the cause worthy.

The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.
Better to ask that all new systems be Open Source.

Well, I totally agree with what you wrote. Having said that, it doesn't
cost us a penny to sign/share the petition.




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[Christopher Hunter]

Post by Keith Edmunds

Post by Martin
Please share if you find the cause worthy.

The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.
Better to ask that all new systems be Open Source.

Speaking as a Government lackey, I can (happily) report that we are
starting to use FOSS. Uptake is slow, and there's a lot of (mostly
unfounded) resistance, but it's beginning to happen.

Just earlier today, we selected a traffic monitoring system partly
because the software that controls it is entirely open (the hardware
even runs embedded Linux).

The fact that the only halfway credible competitor for this system uses
WinCE (what an appropriate name!) and the control and configuration
software is proprietary and expensively licenced per copy (and had
amusingly blue-screened and hung several times during their attempted
demonstration) made the FOSS system an easy "sell" to the bean-counters!

We're starting to use Libre Office, and we're seeing quite a lot of
Ubuntu about these days (though the secretariat seem to prefer "Mint").

Hopefully, it'll just be a matter of time. Central (and regional)
government is beginning to realise that most software licences and bogus
"support" are expensive scams. Persistently broken software (like
Windows "Office") is now recognised to be expensive both in money and
time!

C.

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[Robert]

Post by Christopher Hunter

Post by Keith Edmunds

Post by Martin
Please share if you find the cause worthy.

The cause may be worthy, but the likelihood of the Government migrating
from Windows to Linux is zero, at least in the foreseeable future.
Better to ask that all new systems be Open Source.

Speaking as a Government lackey, I can (happily) report that we are
starting to use FOSS. Uptake is slow, and there's a lot of (mostly
unfounded) resistance, but it's beginning to happen.
Just earlier today, we selected a traffic monitoring system partly
because the software that controls it is entirely open (the hardware
even runs embedded Linux).
The fact that the only halfway credible competitor for this system uses
WinCE (what an appropriate name!) and the control and configuration
software is proprietary and expensively licenced per copy (and had
amusingly blue-screened and hung several times during their attempted
demonstration) made the FOSS system an easy "sell" to the bean-counters!
We're starting to use Libre Office, and we're seeing quite a lot of
Ubuntu about these days (though the secretariat seem to prefer "Mint").
Hopefully, it'll just be a matter of time. Central (and regional)
government is beginning to realise that most software licences and bogus
"support" are expensive scams. Persistently broken software (like
Windows "Office") is now recognised to be expensive both in money and
time!
C.
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This is nice to hear, small steps are great start as long as they are
deemed successful.
Didn't the LSE switch to SUSE recently?
If only my current work place would consider Linux, but instead we
thought we'd let Microsoft tell us they no longer support XP and server
2003, and force us to upgrade to server 2008 and win 7. Super!
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[John Hearns]

Post by Robert

Post by Robert
deemed successful.

Didn't the LSE switch to SUSE recently?

At first glance I thought you mean the London School of Ecognomics.
But yes, the Stock Exchange does
http://www.novell.com/news/press/2011/2/novell-delivers-linux-server-system-to-london-stock-exchange.html

I would like to say, but without trying to do you down, that many many
organisations run Linux and depend on Linux. It is just not shouted
from the rooftops.

Being slightly contenious (spelling?) here, the discussions tend to be
on the adoption on Linux on the desktop. That I think is less popular
- partly because of the stranglehold of Exchange plus calendaring
integration
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[Alain Williams]

Post by John Hearns
Being slightly contenious (spelling?) here, the discussions tend to be
on the adoption on Linux on the desktop. That I think is less popular
- partly because of the stranglehold of Exchange plus calendaring
integration

They way to the desktop is to replace the applications, one by one (firefox,
OoO, ...), until for most people the underlying operating system is irrelevant
as the apps that they use work under most things: MS Windows, Linux, OS/X.

Also: don't go for a clean sweap - you will always find someone who *needs*
something that only runs on a particular platform. 80% is what you should aim
at, and if you use open standards (file formats, networked file systems/shares)
then do you really care ?

Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ? Anyone tried this:

http://www.zarafa.com/

I look every year or so and so far there have always been a few problems.

[Tethys]

Post by Alain Williams
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ?

Simple answer: no.

Tet

[John Hearns]

Post by Alain Williams

Post by Alain Williams
They way to the desktop is to replace the applications, one by one (firefox,

OoO, ...), until for most people the underlying operating system is irrelevant
as the apps that they use work under most things: MS Windows, Linux, OS/X.

I couldn't agree with you more.
That's what Joe User wants - he or she doesn't give a stuff about the OS.
Joe User however quite frequently gets hostile to Jim Computerbuff
when non-Windows operating systems are being proposed - what they
REALLY mean is "Whine whine.... it doesn't run Outlook/Office"

Post by Alain Williams
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ?

It is the shared calendaring which makes Outlook a lock-in to many companies.
People depend on it very closely for their day to day work.
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[James Courtier-Dutton]

Post by John Hearns

Post by Alain Williams

Post by Alain Williams
They way to the desktop is to replace the applications, one by one (firefox,

OoO, ...), until for most people the underlying operating system is irrelevant
as the apps that they use work under most things: MS Windows, Linux, OS/X.

I couldn't agree with you more.
That's what Joe User wants - he or she doesn't give a stuff about the OS.
Joe User however quite frequently gets hostile to Jim Computerbuff
when non-Windows operating systems are being proposed - what they
REALLY mean is "Whine whine.... it doesn't run Outlook/Office"

Post by Alain Williams
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ?

It is the shared calendaring which makes Outlook a lock-in to many companies.
People depend on it very closely for their day to day work.

What is needed is a standard interface between components. There needs
to be standards for messaging, not just the transmission of the
message, but also the automated processing and understanding of the
messages.
So, if an Outlook user invites me to a meeting, I get an email
message. It would be nice if my calendar application could receive the
email, understand it, and reply to accept/reject the meeting.
I would prefer the emails and calendar to be stored centrally, with my
laptop having a cached version.
Outlook calendar is stored centrally, which is why other people can
see your "busy" times when trying to organize a meeting.
What is holding things back is that people are still using pop3 and
imap instead of more modern protocols technologies, such as the one
used between the gmail android app and google.
Just displaying the 10 most up to date emails on my smart phone great.
Low bandwidth requirements, and I always have an option to fetch older
ones. POP3 and IMAP do not have these features.
So, I conclude that open source is kind of backward when it comes to
email and calendar programs.
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[Alain Williams]

Post by James Courtier-Dutton

Post by John Hearns

Post by Alain Williams

Post by Alain Williams
They way to the desktop is to replace the applications, one by one (firefox,

OoO, ...), until for most people the underlying operating system is irrelevant
as the apps that they use work under most things: MS Windows, Linux, OS/X.

I couldn't agree with you more.
That's what Joe User wants - he or she doesn't give a stuff about the OS.
Joe User however quite frequently gets hostile to Jim Computerbuff
when non-Windows operating systems are being proposed - what they
REALLY mean is "Whine whine.... it doesn't run Outlook/Office"

Post by Alain Williams
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ?

It is the shared calendaring which makes Outlook a lock-in to many companies.
People depend on it very closely for their day to day work.

What is needed is a standard interface between components. There needs
to be standards for messaging, not just the transmission of the

There are plenty of 'standards', the problem is that some of them are
proprietary and deliberately obscured. The one in this case is 'MAPI' -- look it up.

Post by James Courtier-Dutton
message, but also the automated processing and understanding of the
messages.
So, if an Outlook user invites me to a meeting, I get an email
message. It would be nice if my calendar application could receive the
email, understand it, and reply to accept/reject the meeting.

That is the easy bit. The MS Outlook meeting invitations are in plain text and
not too hard to parse.

Post by James Courtier-Dutton
I would prefer the emails and calendar to be stored centrally, with my
laptop having a cached version.

Email is not a problem. The IMAP protocol does that nicely. But many people
regard email as including the calendar/groupware function. It has to be said
that MS does integrate this in a way that many people like.

The the problem is how to talk to a MS Exchange server, in particular the
protocol (wrapped up in MAPI) to query/set/... meeting dates, etc.
MS has made it hard for independant/free implementation. This means that you
cannot rip out MS exchange, which in turn means that you need MS LDAP and a MS
Server of some sort.

It also means that if you want to use the calendaring in a nice way then you
have to use MS Outlook - Thunderbird/evolution don't do that well.

The MS exchange replacement problem is not helped by things like blackberry only
having a pluging/connection to MS Exchange.

Post by James Courtier-Dutton
Outlook calendar is stored centrally, which is why other people can
see your "busy" times when trying to organize a meeting.
What is holding things back is that people are still using pop3 and
imap instead of more modern protocols technologies, such as the one
used between the gmail android app and google.
Just displaying the 10 most up to date emails on my smart phone great.
Low bandwidth requirements, and I always have an option to fetch older
ones. POP3 and IMAP do not have these features.

Check rfc3501 - 6.3.1. SELECT Command -- has a RECENT option:
Also 6.3.2. EXAMINE Command

Post by James Courtier-Dutton
So, I conclude that open source is kind of backward when it comes to
email and calendar programs.

[Geo]

Post by John Hearns

Post by Alain Williams

Post by Alain Williams
They way to the desktop is to replace the applications, one by one (firefox,

OoO, ...), until for most people the underlying operating system is irrelevant
as the apps that they use work under most things: MS Windows, Linux, OS/X.

I couldn't agree with you more.
That's what Joe User wants - he or she doesn't give a stuff about the OS.
Joe User however quite frequently gets hostile to Jim Computerbuff
when non-Windows operating systems are being proposed - what they
REALLY mean is "Whine whine.... it doesn't run Outlook/Office"

Post by Alain Williams
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ?

It is the shared calendaring which makes Outlook a lock-in to many
companies. People depend on it very closely for their day to day work.
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John,
a bunch of Masonic sites use Keepandshare.com's calendar services for
co-ordinating meeting & social events.
The free version allows viewing by friend / group nominated by the calendar
owner. The bought version (29USD/per annum ) will notify all concerned of any
new events entered on the calendar.
YMMV

[Rich Walker]

Post by John Hearns

Post by Alain Williams
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird &
Evolution ?

It is the shared calendaring which makes Outlook a lock-in to many companies.
People depend on it very closely for their day to day work.

Perhaps it's just the people I work with, but every project we've
started in the last couple of years, we've said "here's the Google
Calendar" and we've never had anyone ask about Outlook.

Calendar downloads to connected devices, works on everyone's phone, and
so forth.

Is there *anyone* who would write Outlook into the op plan for a new
business?

cheers, Rich.

[Martin A. Brooks]

Post by Rich Walker
Perhaps it's just the people I work with, but every project we've
started in the last couple of years, we've said "here's the Google
Calendar" and we've never had anyone ask about Outlook.

Outlook by itself is not a particularly good calendaring tool. When is
combined with an Exchange server, and Exchange is doing all the heavy
lifting, that's when it starts to get good.

Google's calendars are "okay", but it you want something !Google then I
suggest taking a look at Zimbra. Zimbra has really grown on me as a
viable, and free enough, exchange replacement.



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[Robert]

Post by Martin A. Brooks

Post by Rich Walker
Perhaps it's just the people I work with, but every project we've
started in the last couple of years, we've said "here's the Google
Calendar" and we've never had anyone ask about Outlook.

Outlook by itself is not a particularly good calendaring tool. When is
combined with an Exchange server, and Exchange is doing all the heavy
lifting, that's when it starts to get good.
Google's calendars are "okay", but it you want something !Google then I
suggest taking a look at Zimbra. Zimbra has really grown on me as a
viable, and free enough, exchange replacement.
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I played with Zimbra for a while and was really impressed with it, but I
hadn't looked at it as a full on enterprise solution.

I know my employers would be reluctant to look at using google calendar
as they'll be concerned about confidential data/meetings/shared
documents being on a system outside of our own control, but I'm sure
this is more to do with perception and adapting to change.
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[John Hearns]

Post by Robert
I know my employers would be reluctant to look at using google calendar
as they'll be concerned about confidential data/meetings/shared
documents being on a system outside of our own control, but I'm sure
this is more to do with perception and adapting to change.

The same thing could be said of any part of a business using 'cloud' services.
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[Andy Millar]

Post by John Hearns

Post by Robert
I know my employers would be reluctant to look at using google
calendar as they'll be concerned about confidential
data/meetings/shared documents being on a system outside of our own
control, but I'm sure this is more to do with perception and adapting to

change.
The same thing could be said of any part of a business using 'cloud' services.

And, quite frankly, should be.

Andy
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[Asc]

Post by Andy Millar

Post by John Hearns

Post by Robert
I know my employers would be reluctant to look at using google
calendar as they'll be concerned about confidential
data/meetings/shared documents being on a system outside of our own
control, but I'm sure this is more to do with perception and adapting to

change.
The same thing could be said of any part of a business using 'cloud' services.

And, quite frankly, should be.

The main problem with google hosting business data for my work was they could not guarantee that the data would remain in the EU and thus be governed by EU law. Our lawyers spent many months negotiating this with them in 2010 and could not be resolved. However Microsoft could ensure it and we eventually went with their Live service and some custom agreement.
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[Bernard Peek]

Post by Rich Walker
Is there *anyone* who would write Outlook into the op plan for a new
business?

Me, for one. I don't know of any serious competitor for the combination
of Exchange and Outlook. Enlighten me.

I hit the same problem when I look for a Linux equivalent to Microsoft
Access. There are Linux equivalents for most of the individual functions
that it includes but not for the package as a whole. It's the main
reason why I still run a Windows box.

[Martin A. Brooks]

Post by Bernard Peek

Post by Rich Walker
Is there *anyone* who would write Outlook into the op plan for a new
business?

Me, for one. I don't know of any serious competitor for the combination
of Exchange and Outlook. Enlighten me.

Zimbra ticks many boxes.


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[Andy Millar]

Post by Martin A. Brooks
Zimbra ticks many boxes.

Though is more expensive and more resource intensive than Exchange and does not support enterprise features properly (their BlackBerry support is dire).

There is also no sane HA availability.

It ticks many boxes, and may become a suitable exchange alternative (though their refusal to support Notes is poor), but it is certainly not there yet.

Andy
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[Khusro Jaleel]

Post by Alain Williams

Post by John Hearns
Being slightly contenious (spelling?) here, the discussions tend to be
on the adoption on Linux on the desktop. That I think is less popular
- partly because of the stranglehold of Exchange plus calendaring
integration

They way to the desktop is to replace the applications, one by one (firefox,
OoO, ...), until for most people the underlying operating system is irrelevant
as the apps that they use work under most things: MS Windows, Linux, OS/X.
Also: don't go for a clean sweap - you will always find someone who *needs*
something that only runs on a particular platform. 80% is what you should aim
at, and if you use open standards (file formats, networked file systems/shares)
then do you really care ?
Regarding MS Exchange. Is there yet a *good* free drop in replacement, ie one
that lets people continue to use MS Outlook, will also play with Thunderbird&
http://www.zarafa.com/
I look every year or so and so far there have always been a few problems.

According to some discussions I've had, people claim Zarafa can be used
as an Exchange replacement, with Outlook on the client side (with a MAPI
connector of some sort), I have not tried this personally though.


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[Alain Williams]

Post by Khusro Jaleel
According to some discussions I've had, people claim Zarafa can be used
as an Exchange replacement, with Outlook on the client side (with a MAPI
connector of some sort), I have not tried this personally though.

They claim to be open source, but you don't seem to be able to download anything
without registering. However there are RPMs in epel.

I also see that MS Outlook integration is not free, a fundemental issue:

http://www.zarafa.com/faq/if-i-build-zarafa-source-can-i-still-buy-subscription-outlook-access

But ... it seems to use libmapi (MAPI4linux)

Reading that led me to this, which seems to be getting there, anyone any experience ?:

http://www.openchange.org/

[Nix]

Post by John Hearns
I would like to say, but without trying to do you down, that many many
organisations run Linux and depend on Linux. It is just not shouted
from the rooftops.

Particularly in the City. Does anyone *not* use either Linux or Solaris
somewhere in their stock trading these days?

[JLMS]

Post by Nix

Post by John Hearns
I would like to say, but without trying to do you down, that many many
organisations run Linux and depend on Linux. It is just not shouted
from the rooftops.

Particularly in the City. Does anyone *not* use either Linux or Solaris
somewhere in their stock trading these days?

A well known company, which should remained unnamed, have 500 Linux
*desktops* , but would not allow mention of it because they didn't
want their competitors to know about this competitive advantage :-)

This was not hearsay,it appeared in reliable statistics available to
all SysAdmins used to account for licenses across the firm.

This was on top of a good number of Red Hat and SuSE servers.
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[JLMS]

Post by Martin
Hi all,
Just to let you know that a LinuxQuestions member initiated an e-petition to
call for a Windows to Linux migration on the government IT systems.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32255
Please share if you find the cause worthy.
Thank you
Martin

Oh dear .... I would sign in a heart bit, but the spelling mistakes
are so horrible that I can't put my name to it in good conscience ..
it looks like written by a drunk person in a fit of anger....
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[Robert]

Post by JLMS

Post by Martin
Hi all,
Just to let you know that a LinuxQuestions member initiated an e-petition to
call for a Windows to Linux migration on the government IT systems.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32255
Please share if you find the cause worthy.
Thank you
Martin

Oh dear .... I would sign in a heart bit, but the spelling mistakes
are so horrible that I can't put my name to it in good conscience ..
it looks like written by a drunk person in a fit of anger....
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Agreed the spelling shows the person that posted it maybe hasn't taken
the idea as seriously as they should. But you're not signing it to
associate your name to the contents readability. Spelling mistakes or
not, if it gets enough signatures it will at least be another avenue of
opening doors to the government "zombie safe-house" that is so ignorant
of the world outside their offices.

(just came back from Brussels where I toured inside the Euro parliament,
these people only leave the office for a pub. they have beds, dry
cleaners, cafe's, shops, banks all inside the Euro parliament buildings
because their afraid of the real world)
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[Christopher Currie]

Our little business recently spent about half my small annual salary upgrading
from M$ Office 2003 to Office 2010; which of course turns out to be slower.

Nevertheless the Word not only reads .odt files, but claims to save them, no
doubt in a broken way, and allows you to adopt .odt as the default. So even M$
is having to adapt to pressure.

Open data standards are even more important than FOSS, IMHO.

meanwhile M$ still haven't adjusted the paragraph-sort limit upwards, and I
have to use OoO to do it..

Christopher Currie

[Tethys]

Post by Christopher Currie
Open data standards are even more important than FOSS, IMHO.

Agreed 100%.

Tet

[Alain Williams]

Post by Christopher Currie
Open data standards are even more important than FOSS, IMHO.

+1 If you adopt open standards then you have choice, longevity of data access, ...

[Paul Hewlett]

This link
http://mobile.computerworlduk.com/news/public-sector/3348475/munich-mayor-says-switch-linux-is-much-cheaper-reduced-complai/shows
that is possible

Post by Martin
Hi all,
Just to let you know that a LinuxQuestions member initiated an e-petition
to call for a Windows to Linux migration on the government IT systems.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.**uk/petitions/32255<http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32255>
Please share if you find the cause worthy.
Thank you
Martin
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[Robert]

Hi all,

A project I'm looking to do at home is to replace my broadband router
with a "modem -> Linux box -> router" replacement for some fun and
experience.

But I'm struggling to find the ideal, and cheap box that'll be my
gateway. I'm ideally looking for something small (booksize), fanless
(atom?), and with 2x NIC's built in rather than wifi+nic or USB-NIC
hanging off. Optical devices not required as will install Linux via USB.

Something along the lines of an Aopen DE2700 for example. Is there
something you have experience with and recommend please?

My usage will be to learn about firewalls, IPS/IDS, logging, general
networking and such.

Many thanks
Rob
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[d***@gmail.com]

If you're game for building one, the boards at http://mini-itx.com/ are worth a look. There are (well, last time I bought one) many with two or more NICs mostly with low power fanless CPUs.

Dave
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert <***@binaryexistence.co.uk>
Sender: gllug-***@gllug.org.uk
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 23:53:23
To: <***@gllug.org.uk>
Reply-To: Greater London Linux User Group <***@gllug.org.uk>
Subject: [Gllug] MiniPC with 2x NIC

Hi all,

A project I'm looking to do at home is to replace my broadband router
with a "modem -> Linux box -> router" replacement for some fun and
experience.

But I'm struggling to find the ideal, and cheap box that'll be my
gateway. I'm ideally looking for something small (booksize), fanless
(atom?), and with 2x NIC's built in rather than wifi+nic or USB-NIC
hanging off. Optical devices not required as will install Linux via USB.

Something along the lines of an Aopen DE2700 for example. Is there
something you have experience with and recommend please?

My usage will be to learn about firewalls, IPS/IDS, logging, general
networking and such.

Many thanks
Rob
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[Tim Hughes]

I have been looking at getting one of these
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=40, a little expensive but designed for
what you want. Their thin client is dual lan which is a bit odd for a thin
client but would make a nice router http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=27 and
is a fair bit cheaper



Tim Hughes

Post by d***@gmail.com
If you're game for building one, the boards at http://mini-itx.com/ are
worth a look. There are (well, last time I bought one) many with two or
more NICs mostly with low power fanless CPUs.
Dave
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-----Original Message-----
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 23:53:23
Subject: [Gllug] MiniPC with 2x NIC
Hi all,
A project I'm looking to do at home is to replace my broadband router
with a "modem -> Linux box -> router" replacement for some fun and
experience.
But I'm struggling to find the ideal, and cheap box that'll be my
gateway. I'm ideally looking for something small (booksize), fanless
(atom?), and with 2x NIC's built in rather than wifi+nic or USB-NIC
hanging off. Optical devices not required as will install Linux via USB.
Something along the lines of an Aopen DE2700 for example. Is there
something you have experience with and recommend please?
My usage will be to learn about firewalls, IPS/IDS, logging, general
networking and such.
Many thanks
Rob
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[Caparo]

Post by Tim Hughes
I have been looking at getting one of these
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=40, a little expensive but designed for
what you want. Their thin client is dual lan which is a bit odd for a thin
client but would make a nice router http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=27 and
is a fair bit cheaper
Tim Hughes

Post by d***@gmail.com
If you're game for building one, the boards at http://mini-itx.com/ are
worth a look. There are (well, last time I bought one) many with two or
more NICs mostly with low power fanless CPUs.
Dave
--
Sent using from a tiny keypad.
-----Original Message-----
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 23:53:23
Subject: [Gllug] MiniPC with 2x NIC
Hi all,
A project I'm looking to do at home is to replace my broadband router
with a "modem -> Linux box -> router" replacement for some fun and
experience.
But I'm struggling to find the ideal, and cheap box that'll be my
gateway. I'm ideally looking for something small (booksize), fanless
(atom?), and with 2x NIC's built in rather than wifi+nic or USB-NIC
hanging off. Optical devices not required as will install Linux via USB.
Something along the lines of an Aopen DE2700 for example. Is there
something you have experience with and recommend please?
My usage will be to learn about firewalls, IPS/IDS, logging, general
networking and such.
Many thanks
Rob
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Hi
I believe that TRAVERSE electronics in Australia who worked with IPCop on
Pulsar brand adsl cards now do a tiny custom mobo that runs the new IPCop
software.
drop an email to:-
Guy Ellis <guy AT traverse DOT com DOT au>
for details

[Robert]

Post by Tim Hughes
I have been looking at getting one of these
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=40, a little expensive but designed
for what you want. Their thin client is dual lan which is a bit odd
for a thin client but would make a nice router
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=27 and is a fair bit cheaper

1st link is nice but a bit too expensive for me when you start to add
storage etc to it.

I like the 2nd link a lot. I just spent some time going through the
individual components and came up with a 2700 Atom + 2GB RAM, 60GB SSD
and a case for £13 more than the 2nd link, can be cheaper if you change
the drive out, but SSD just basically makes this a noiseless system.

I believe SSD is fine with Linux now? I'm sure I briefly read something
a while back with there being problems.
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[John Hearns]

Solid State Disks not being fine with Linux???
Do you mean with respect to wear levelling or something?

Post by Robert

Post by Tim Hughes
I have been looking at getting one of these
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=40, a little expensive but designed
for what you want. Their thin client is dual lan which is a bit odd
for a thin client but would make a nice router
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=27 and is a fair bit cheaper

1st link is nice but a bit too expensive for me when you start to add
storage etc to it.
I like the 2nd link a lot. I just spent some time going through the
individual components and came up with a 2700 Atom + 2GB RAM, 60GB SSD
and a case for £13 more than the 2nd link, can be cheaper if you change
the drive out, but SSD just basically makes this a noiseless system.
I believe SSD is fine with Linux now? I'm sure I briefly read something
a while back with there being problems.
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[Andrew Farnsworth]

I believe he is talking about TRIM support which Linux didn't have at
first. It really depends on the file system and settings. Google for it
and you find that Ext4 and Btrfs support it (and maybe others) but you may
have to pass parameters.

Andy

Post by John Hearns
Solid State Disks not being fine with Linux???
Do you mean with respect to wear levelling or something?

Post by Robert

Post by Tim Hughes
I have been looking at getting one of these
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=40, a little expensive but designed
for what you want. Their thin client is dual lan which is a bit odd
for a thin client but would make a nice router
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=27 and is a fair bit cheaper

1st link is nice but a bit too expensive for me when you start to add
storage etc to it.
I like the 2nd link a lot. I just spent some time going through the
individual components and came up with a 2700 Atom + 2GB RAM, 60GB SSD
and a case for £13 more than the 2nd link, can be cheaper if you change
the drive out, but SSD just basically makes this a noiseless system.
I believe SSD is fine with Linux now? I'm sure I briefly read something
a while back with there being problems.
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[John Hearns]

Post by Andrew Farnsworth
I believe he is talking about TRIM support which Linux didn't have at
first. It really depends on the file system and settings. Google for it
and you find that Ext4 and Btrfs support it (and maybe others) but you may
have to pass parameters.

At the risk of being rude to Robert, this is an example of how FUD spreads.
There is an example quoted on some support forum or other, or on a
blog, along the lines of "Linux does not support Device XYZ" or "Linux
cannot do ABC"
Months or years later, when there IS support for XYZ and ABC in the
Linux kernel the information surfaces again.


Sorry Robert - really and honestly not a personal attack on you, but I
have seen how FUD regarding Linux propagates. And remember Linux does
not have a huge marketing budget behind it. Yes I DO know that Redhat
is a billion dollar company these days, but we don't see the blitz of
television and press advertisign for a new Redhat version etc. etc.
etc. s/Redhat/Ubuntu/ to your liking.
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[Robert .]

Post by John Hearns

Post by Andrew Farnsworth
I believe he is talking about TRIM support which Linux didn't have at
first. It really depends on the file system and settings. Google for it
and you find that Ext4 and Btrfs support it (and maybe others) but you

may

Post by Andrew Farnsworth
have to pass parameters.

At the risk of being rude to Robert, this is an example of how FUD spreads.
There is an example quoted on some support forum or other, or on a
blog, along the lines of "Linux does not support Device XYZ" or "Linux
cannot do ABC"
Months or years later, when there IS support for XYZ and ABC in the
Linux kernel the information surfaces again.
Sorry Robert - really and honestly not a personal attack on you, but I
have seen how FUD regarding Linux propagates. And remember Linux does
not have a huge marketing budget behind it. Yes I DO know that Redhat
is a billion dollar company these days, but we don't see the blitz of
television and press advertisign for a new Redhat version etc. etc.
etc. s/Redhat/Ubuntu/ to your liking.
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John:
Not rude at all and I actually appreciate what you are saying (I'm assuming
FUD means Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt?) I have recently come to realise that
(a) quality information is hard to come-by on the iNet (b) A lot of info is
very scattered, making it extremely difficult to learn from. So I try to
stick to (expensive) [e]?books where possible now. But maybe the above is
what had raised my concerns regarding TRIM that Andrew correctly deducted
from my message.

Mr Ford:
I recently just brought the same modem, but I'm plugg into a Cisco E3200. I
hadn't considered the idea of getting a router I could install custom wares
on, sounds fun. But this is why I'm now looking to build a new project/mini
pc to give me that role and flexibility.

I use to look at LHS website and IRC, what's it like down there? was always
too chicken to randomly go down there since I don't know anyone.

[John Hearns]

Post by Robert .
Not rude at all and I actually appreciate what you are saying (I'm assuming
FUD means Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt?) I have recently come to realise that
(a) quality information is hard to come-by on the iNet (b) A lot of info is
very scattered, making it extremely difficult to learn from. So I try to
stick to (expensive) [e]?books where possible now.

Robert, thankyou for the decent reply!
You're not kidding about the quality of the information on the internet!

Yes, FUD means Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.
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[S. Ford]

I recently upgraded my adsl router to a dratek vigor 120 (modem) and wrt54g running dd-wrt (router), all up shouldn't cost more than £80. I have found it incredibly reliable and more powerful than any ISP supplied solution.

The wrt54g running dd-wrt, open wrt or tomato is a nice cheap solution that has iptables and loads of features; however it is only 802.11g and 10/100 Ethernet which I find suitable to my needs, but you could always disable wifi and connect it all to a gigE and wireless N WAP for faster speed.

The LHS recently went with the v120 and an Alix board (all up £180ish) see link below for links to detailed hardware specifications.

Both the wrt54g and Alix solutions for a router offer immense power and customisation, however I place my vote with the wrt54g because of the price and the ease to manage it.


http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledges/New_Router

I have been looking at getting one of these http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=40, a little expensive but designed for what you want. Their thin client is dual lan which is a bit odd for a thin client but would make a nice router http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=27 and is a fair bit cheaper

[John Edwards]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 01:52:21PM +0000, S. Ford wrote:
<snip>

Post by S. Ford
The LHS recently went with the v120 and an Alix board (all up
£180ish) see link below for links to detailed hardware
specifications.
Both the wrt54g and Alix solutions for a router offer immense power
and customisation, however I place my vote with the wrt54g because
of the price and the ease to manage it.

The Alix board are nice - small, silent, cheap, very low power,
capable of running Linux as a firewall with a few extra services.

But one word of warning - most of the board do not have a RTC battery
and so lose the time during a power cut. This means you have to do a
fsck on boot, which is not possible if you are offsite and this is the
main firewall.

Also some distributions (eg Ubuntu 10.04) seem to have a problem with
the serial console during boot. It works at GRUB and after init has
finished, but not at the fsck stage. So you can't complete the fsck
and have to fsck the card or drive on another machine. Annoying.

So for Linux, I would recommend paying an extra few quid for a board
with a battery. These are usually the .D1. range (eg 2D13 or 2D19).

[Chris Bell]

Post by d***@gmail.com
If you're game for building one, the boards at http://mini-itx.com/ are worth a look.
There are (well, last time I bought one) many with two or more NICs mostly with low po
wer fanless CPUs.

I have seen several computers with non-standard small motherboards in a
small case where the PSU has died, but the non-standard replacement PSU is
around half the cost of a complete new computer. A normal PSU will work,
costs less, but it will not fit inside the case.

[Christian Smith]

Post by Martin
Hi all,
A project I'm looking to do at home is to replace my broadband router
with a "modem -> Linux box -> router" replacement for some fun and
experience.
But I'm struggling to find the ideal, and cheap box that'll be my
gateway. I'm ideally looking for something small (booksize), fanless
(atom?), and with 2x NIC's built in rather than wifi+nic or USB-NIC
hanging off. Optical devices not required as will install Linux via USB.
Something along the lines of an Aopen DE2700 for example. Is there
something you have experience with and recommend please?
My usage will be to learn about firewalls, IPS/IDS, logging, general
networking and such.

In my case, I've installed OpenWRT x86 on an old ASUS Eee PC 701,
using a USB NIC to talk to the cable modem, the on board NIC to
downlink to a wireless router, and the on board Wifi as another
an alternative Wifi network to the router.

The USB NIC was cheap as chips on ebay (<4 GBP IIRC), and performs
much better than I expected, and certainly fast enough to handle
my 10Mbps cable broadband.

The benefits of an old netbook are they are nice and cheap, have built
in UPS, built in console and low power.

I configured it at the time as I suspected the crappy Virgin Media
supplied netgear router was upsetting my bzflag gaming and would
regularly hang the wifi network, but since I've removed the VM
branded firmware, and installed the latest netgear generic firmware,
the router appears more reliable anyway.

Christian
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[James Roberts]

Post by Robert
But I'm struggling to find the ideal, and cheap box that'll be my
gateway. I'm ideally looking for something small (booksize), fanless
(atom?), and with 2x NIC's built in rather than wifi+nic or USB-NIC
hanging off. Optical devices not required as will install Linux via USB.

There's been lots of good advice.

We also use Alix boards (D13) for low encrypted throughput scenarios.
They are very good. Will apparently work with IPCop 1/2 (but we use pfsense:

http://linitx.com/product/12647

If however you need a bit more welly then try one of these:

http://linitx.com/product/13406

with one of these:

http://linitx.com/product/12576

and these:

http://linitx.com/product/13116

These will fit in any standard box or any MiniITX case.

We find PSU issues (correctly mentioned by one respondent) to be reduced
by using these:

http://linitx.com/product/10916

and a 12V brick:

http://linitx.com/product/12342

They still fail but replacements are trivially available from multiple
sources.
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